Topklasse Discussion Board  
Home Forum Legal/Privacy Media/Picture Gallery Websites and Links Technical

Go Back   Topklasse Discussion Board > THE CRAFTSMAN - TECHNICAL DEPARTMENT > MECHANICALS

MECHANICALS With a 30 year-old automobile, there will always be discussion here - maintenance, modifications and mechanicals.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #16  
Old 14th October 2011, 10:18 PM
motec 6.9's Avatar
motec 6.9 motec 6.9 is offline
Prodigal Son
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: perth
Posts: 5,934
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Hi Mark & Michel here are the prices for a 722 trans from v12biturbo http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MERCEDES-...item518dbc290d and http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/00-06-MER...item4ce92f4c1e i hope this helps
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 15th October 2011, 12:43 PM
Michel's Avatar
Michel Michel is offline
One Of The Boys
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 8,527
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEL_69L View Post
Is there a 4 or 5 speed American auto transmission from the muscle car era?
Auto transmissions from this period do not have electronic control, and therefore should be more adaptable to the 6.9.
I know of another alternative currently installed in an American muscle car:
-three speed auto with manually operated lockup on all three ratios.
The TurboHydro 400 (T400) by GM and the Torqueflite 727 (T727) by Chrysler are bullet proof boxes.
However, they are only 3 speed...
__________________
Michel

1978 W116 690SEL # 3312
1985 R107 500SL AMG
2000 W208 CLK430 Coupe
2003 W163 ML320
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 15th October 2011, 12:50 PM
Michel's Avatar
Michel Michel is offline
One Of The Boys
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 8,527
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony66_au View Post
Agreed Michel, But not all TH700's are created equal and the US early units with minimal electronic Servo mech is the unit to use.

The Aussie units are ok but the US sourced units are better and far more adaptable.

I believe that the 50's Rolls Royces used GM sourced 4 speed autos and I believe they are an excellent unit.
My T700 was out of a VN V8 with cable shift.

The 4speed auto in the Rolls Royce is an old GM design (from the fifties) that was fitted to the Cloud series I, II & III as well as Bentleys' SI, SII and SIII.
__________________
Michel

1978 W116 690SEL # 3312
1985 R107 500SL AMG
2000 W208 CLK430 Coupe
2003 W163 ML320
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 16th October 2011, 09:09 PM
Tony66_au's Avatar
Tony66_au Tony66_au is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gippsland, Vic
Posts: 2,307
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Well then you have a US sourced Turbo700 Michel as i believe that pre VP they had US units with a chev V8 pattern?

Re the T400? 2 pumps and more internals make them a bit hard on engine HP and ive found that the T350's are far simpler and harder wearing.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 19th October 2011, 06:54 AM
Michel's Avatar
Michel Michel is offline
One Of The Boys
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 8,527
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony66_au View Post
Well then you have a US sourced Turbo700 Michel as i believe that pre VP they had US units with a chev V8 pattern?

Re the T400? 2 pumps and more internals make them a bit hard on engine HP and ive found that the T350's are far simpler and harder wearing.
We (in the Chevy fraternity) tend to use T350 as a straight replacement and upgrade from a 2speed Powerglide because of the simplicity of the exchange.
Same size and same spline!
T400 were in demand when you had serious horsepower to deal with.
__________________
Michel

1978 W116 690SEL # 3312
1985 R107 500SL AMG
2000 W208 CLK430 Coupe
2003 W163 ML320
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:00 PM
Oversize's Avatar
Oversize Oversize is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,351
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Ok here's some info that I've copied from another site where I discussed a transmission upgrade:

Mark, 560SEL got the 722.323 and the 420 got a 722.324. It appears the 722.3 transmissions used behind the V8 cars were W4A-040 units, with 040 being the torque rating in mkg. The V12 cars had a 722.362 unit which was a W4A-055. 40mkg is about 392NM or 289lb/ft. 55mkg would be about 539NM or 398lb/ft of torque. Considering that the 6.9 transmission was rated at 050, I think the V12 unit would work, although you could probably get by with a 560SEL unit as the euro version of that engine was pretty damn close to what a 6.9 made. I may be incorrect on the mkg vs nm. The early transmissions in the late 60's were rated in Mkp or mkg, the later ones may in fact be rated in NM, so the ratings would actually be a bit higher....400 and 550NM.


Chris in Phoenix

That doesn't sound right because if a Euro 6.9 can produce 550Nm, it'd blow up both it's own trans, plus that of the V12. From what I've heard the Aussie 600SEL produced 300Kw and 580Nm and would also grenade it's own trans going by those figures

Mark

Well, the 6.9 transmission was a W3B-050 and the 050 is the torque rating of the transmission, either in mkg or nm. They never made a 3 speed with a higher torque rating. The 6.3 was a K4B-050, same torque rating, but a 4 speed with fluid coupling. Also remember in engineering there is usually a "cushion" built into the specs....I would imagine the rating of 500NM is a bit on the conservative side, with the actual capacity being a bit higher.

No electronics, 722.3 transmissions were all mechanical. No lockup converter either. Also, the 722.3 was used in Porsche 928.

Chris
__________________
Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
88 420L#2477-P
87 560L#2020 (Dora 2)
87 560L #9987
87 420L#4309-P
87 420L#-P
86 560L#5896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora 1)
77 450L#7010-P
75 450L#8414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:02 PM
Oversize's Avatar
Oversize Oversize is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,351
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Could we have accidently discovered why the stator splines fail?? Or did they grossly understate the input limits?

BTW I found another site that said the 600SEL used the 722.621 trans but it's likely there's a lot of inaccurate info out there. A different site gave these ratio figures for the 600SEL:

1th gear ratio: 3,87:1

2th gear ratio: 2,25:1

3th gear ratio: 1,44:1

4th gear ratio: 1,00:1

Reverse gear ratio: 5,59:1

Gear Ratio (end): 2,65:1

RPM at 120 km/h (theoretical): 2.450 rpm
__________________
Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
88 420L#2477-P
87 560L#2020 (Dora 2)
87 560L #9987
87 420L#4309-P
87 420L#-P
86 560L#5896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora 1)
77 450L#7010-P
75 450L#8414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:03 PM
Oversize's Avatar
Oversize Oversize is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,351
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

From the same site regarding a 1986 560SEL:

1th gear ratio: 3,87:1

2th gear ratio: 2,25:1

3th gear ratio: 1,44:1

4th gear ratio: 1,00:1

Reverse gear ratio: 5,59:1

Gear Ratio (end): 2,65:1

RPM at 120 km/h (theoretical): 2.550 rpm
__________________
Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
88 420L#2477-P
87 560L#2020 (Dora 2)
87 560L #9987
87 420L#4309-P
87 420L#-P
86 560L#5896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora 1)
77 450L#7010-P
75 450L#8414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:03 PM
Oversize's Avatar
Oversize Oversize is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,351
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Ratio's 6.3 versus 6.9:

6.3
I 1 : 3.98
II 1 : 2.46
III: 1 : 1.58
IV: 1 : 1.00

6.9
I 1 : 2.31
II 1 : 1.46
III 1 : 1.00
__________________
Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
88 420L#2477-P
87 560L#2020 (Dora 2)
87 560L #9987
87 420L#4309-P
87 420L#-P
86 560L#5896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora 1)
77 450L#7010-P
75 450L#8414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:06 PM
Oversize's Avatar
Oversize Oversize is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,351
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Well the goal isn't complex, but the solution certainly is! I want better acceleration than the 6.3 (and many other cars on the road)! Changing the final drive (diff) alone would go a long way towards that goal, but it would also reduce the top speed. I then got thinking about the transmission.... Seems most 4 speeders have a better 1st gear ratio than the 6.9, which would get one into it's ideal rev range even quicker, instead of bogging down off the line. Tyre hook-up is an issue, but I'm not considering swapping the hydro for springs, or anything that radical. Wider, sticky tyres will help.

An overdrive trans would be ideal but I'm not even sure if the 600SEL trans has that function. Then there's the availability issue and I've heard the trans is far from perfect, but it's the only one (on paper) that appears to be able to tolerate the high torque of the M100 and not need an ECU to operate.

The figures I've posted thus far may not be accurate as I have my doubts on their source. I should know more tomorrow when I ST someone with some MB tech data books....

I'm not interested in a manual box, or a swap to a GM trans with the info I have so far.
__________________
Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
88 420L#2477-P
87 560L#2020 (Dora 2)
87 560L #9987
87 420L#4309-P
87 420L#-P
86 560L#5896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora 1)
77 450L#7010-P
75 450L#8414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:09 PM
motec 6.9's Avatar
motec 6.9 motec 6.9 is offline
Prodigal Son
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: perth
Posts: 5,934
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

W140 Series 1 600 4 speed trans. Series 2 W140 600 5 speed trans carried onto W220 series . There are only 2 5 speed boxes difference in number of clutch packs in drums between V8 and V12 trans. So it doesn't matter if rebuilding trans top spec in S65 rated at 1000Nm torque limit. Same box in 300C called NAG1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercede...c_transmission
__________________
Research more post less.
Memnoch #1873 6.9 255.6 RWHP
The Kommando believed only 1 in Oz
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:13 PM
Oversize's Avatar
Oversize Oversize is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,351
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

With a lower 1st gear and final drive, plus a lighter weight, it's obvious why the 6.3 is quicker.

Mark

Be careful with changing rear axle ratios. I had a customer here with a Euro 6.9 that was bored out to a 7.3, custom pistons, etc... Anyway, it also had a 3.07:1 rear axle ratio in it and the thing was not fun to drive at highway speed. I ended up putting a stock rear diff back in it and it made all the difference in the world. With the lower ratio, acceleration was not noticeably faster off the line, and the engine was revving so fast at 60+ mph that it ruined the whole 6.9 experience, not to mention the engine was not in it's "sweet spot". These engines have so much torque that the tall rear axle ratio does not matter, and one of the joys of driving a well sorted out 6.9 is that they have such "long legs" on the highway.

Chris
__________________
Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
88 420L#2477-P
87 560L#2020 (Dora 2)
87 560L #9987
87 420L#4309-P
87 420L#-P
86 560L#5896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora 1)
77 450L#7010-P
75 450L#8414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:16 PM
Oversize's Avatar
Oversize Oversize is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,351
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Regarding the 6.3 diff:

2.82:1 or 2.85:1, depending on the exact generation.
__________________
Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
88 420L#2477-P
87 560L#2020 (Dora 2)
87 560L #9987
87 420L#4309-P
87 420L#-P
86 560L#5896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora 1)
77 450L#7010-P
75 450L#8414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:17 PM
motec 6.9's Avatar
motec 6.9 motec 6.9 is offline
Prodigal Son
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: perth
Posts: 5,934
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Hi Mark did you see reply about 5 speed box.
__________________
Research more post less.
Memnoch #1873 6.9 255.6 RWHP
The Kommando believed only 1 in Oz
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 17th July 2014, 11:21 PM
Oversize's Avatar
Oversize Oversize is offline
Aristocrat
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,351
Default Re: 6.9 Transmission Upgrade

Description of Operation, Auto Trans 722.3 (W4A040) dated 11/85. I wonder if the trans type is stamped, or cast anywhere on the housing? The 40 does indicate Max input torque in Nm, as mentioned earlier in this thread by ctmaher.

The ratios are:
1st 3.68
2nd 2.41
3rd 1.44
4th 1
Reverse 5.14

I had to inspect the car to get the final drive (differential) ratio which is 2.47. This ratio is stamped on the RHR of the diff housing machined face, just below the tag that indicates LSD and the rear cover plate with cooling fins. It also has the number 636313 stamped in the same place and I'm not sure what that means.

So if you could somehow fabricate an adapter to connect this trans and you didn't blow it to pieces with the torque of the 6.9, I wonder what max speed you could achieve on the salt flats??

And if you didn't grenade it on a launch, I wonder how the acceleration would compare to that of a standard 6.9....

Mark
__________________
Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
88 420L#2477-P
87 560L#2020 (Dora 2)
87 560L #9987
87 420L#4309-P
87 420L#-P
86 560L#5896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora 1)
77 450L#7010-P
75 450L#8414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seat upgrade Oversize INTERIORS 2 26th August 2011 06:29 PM
Sound upgrade BAR MERCEDES W116 0 13th March 2009 10:22 AM
116 Performance upgrade. Is it possible? booshand TALKING TORQUE 8 10th September 2008 10:35 PM
Upgrade your 6.9's braking capacity?! SELfor50 TRADING POST/EBAY LISTINGS 5 17th August 2008 07:44 AM


All times are GMT +10. The time now is 10:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Topklasse 2017