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MECHANICALS With a 30 year-old automobile, there will always be discussion here - maintenance, modifications and mechanicals.

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  #31  
Old 10th June 2011, 08:40 AM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Was there ever any update to this thread ?
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  #32  
Old 10th June 2011, 09:38 PM
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Hi Craig, well I didn't get very far as I moved house twice since then & also went on an overseas holiday! I've managed to move all my cars to the same location & steam cleaned them all in the process. That was a few weeks ago. Now, with the on-set of winter & still many boxes to be unpacked, I've been struggling to find time to get into the garage for some serious work. I did drop into a hydraulic service centre a couple of weeks ago & discovered that they could regas them if they knew the size of the fittings & the pressures that were required. From the stampings on the spare cell that I was able to show them (without the re-charge ports), it appeared the pressures were quite high; almost at the upper limit at which nitrogen is normally stored. I'll have to measure the fittings to be able to ID the type, or worst case, remove one from the car.

Is it highly likely that a cell that gone through a bouncy phase has a split diaphram. This is evident by the fact that it occurs suddenly & the large amount of nitrogen suddenly introduced into oil causes the car to bounce. A solid cell may be able to be recharged if it has become firmer over time & hasn't gone through the bouncy stage. This would indicate the nitrogen molecules have slowly passed through the diaphram and dissipated. It is possible that by monitoring the pressures in the cells & keeping them charged, they'll last far longer. It's also possible that pressures could be increased beyond the standard cell, to make the vehicle ride firmer & not so floaty. Of course until I can test all this I'm only guessing, so feel free to comment on my summation.

Does anyone know what pressures where used? I'd heard that there was a heavy duty system available, possibly through AMG. What were the differences over the standard system?
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01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
89 560L#322020
88 500L#451660-P
88 420L#422477-P
87 420L#324309-P
87 420L#-P
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
86 560L#235896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora)
77 450L#067010-P
75 450L#028414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
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  #33  
Old 14th June 2011, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

I just had a look at my spare cell & it has stamped on it IMI 524 550 002, Made in Germany, 0.75L, 200 Bar, 05 9 (red dot). Does anyone know if that's max pressure, or set pressure?
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Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
89 560L#322020
88 500L#451660-P
88 420L#422477-P
87 420L#324309-P
87 420L#-P
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
86 560L#235896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora)
77 450L#067010-P
75 450L#028414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
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  #34  
Old 20th June 2011, 07:34 AM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Hi Mark, thanks for all your time you're putting into this matter. Firstly, let me say that it is good to know that you have now settled into your new home enviroment. I well understand your reference regarding the cold weather, early darkness of the winter season and a reluctance on your part to spend too much time in the garage.......it's not pleasant, is it ? So much nicer in front of the fire with feet up.

It is my understanding that the following pressures apply to the various Air Cells.

6.9 Front (red dot) 75 Ibs./sq.in
6.9 Rears 60 Ibs./sq.in
SLS Rear - 450 - 280 45 lbs./sq.in.

I would imagine that a full hydraulic system on a 560 (very rare) would probably run at 60 lbs. seeing that the engine is just so much lighter than the M100 unit used in the 6.9. Maybe others may be able to share some light on this.

I think in the whole system, somewhere along the line, under certain conditions, there is a pressure reading of 200 lbs./sq.in, but at this stage, I am not sure in what location of the system. From what I understand also, it's now becoming increasingly difficult to ship these Air Cells from the States, therefore if some form of re-gassing is possible, that could well solve apparent future supply issues to some degree. As I have indicated previously, I have old units on hand, but I daresay that any reconditioning process need not necessarily turn out to be saving a lot of money. The alternative, of course, is to go to the dealer but the price.......definitely not cheap.

Also Mark, I took note of the location of the valve on the oil supply hose to the pressure regulator-that seems to defy logic. Any idea on this ? Anyway, I think it'd be a good idea to try and come up with some form of alternative which may well be important in the future. Regards Styria
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  #35  
Old 20th June 2011, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Hi Styria, thanks for that reply. Note that the pressure stamped on my cell was in Bar, not lbs. Are the pressures you quoted definitely in lbs (which seems odd)? I thought Germany only used the metric scale? Or did you get the specs from the USA?? With the correct pressures on hand I can then have a closer look at the fittings & finally have them regassed; yay!!

Do you know if the cell pressures were different in the AMG suspension, or was it just the strut (valving) that was different? Tx
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Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
89 560L#322020
88 500L#451660-P
88 420L#422477-P
87 420L#324309-P
87 420L#-P
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
86 560L#235896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora)
77 450L#067010-P
75 450L#028414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)

Last edited by Oversize; 20th June 2011 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Different meaning
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  #36  
Old 20th June 2011, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Hi Mark, I certainly won't take you on as far as the Air Cell specs are concerned - not until I get the opportunity to double check, although I reckon you're right on the money with your information. I think I might also have to revise my figures for the steel spring assisted 280s - those cells are smaller again than..no wait, what am I talking about ? I think the specs as I have listed are correct, except for the pounds per square inch equasion.

Talking of longevity and Air Cells - Goldie, my 450SE does have self levelling rear suspension (well, I think so) and those Air Cells, if fitted, are at least ten years old and show no sign of deterioration. Maybe again a case of what we buy today is not as good as stuff bought in the dark ages of yesteryear. Regards Styria
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  #37  
Old 20th June 2011, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Mark, sorry I missed replying to your query regarding the AMG (such as they MAY have been !) struts, I personally do not think that there was much to be gained by having "HEAVY DUTY" struts - in my opinion, pressure that is put on struts on one side due to exuberant cornering already stiffens up the strut under pressure. I have experienced that on a couple of occasions when Gleaming Beauty started to "straighten up' under hard cornering.

As far as the strut internals are concerned, the top of the strut contains a certain number of pressure discs that are held in place by a peened nut. Somehow I have the notion that the manufacturer does not want those discs to be disturbed. There are slots or orifices in the assembly that allows for transfer of oil depending on pressures exerted upon the struts. That is the way I see it.

One could say that thicker oil would definitely alter the handling characteristics of the suspension. I know of one owner that used engine oil in the suspension in his 6.9, without apparent ill effects or deterioration in handling. From a personal viewpoint, that would not appeal to me. Regards Styria
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  #38  
Old 30th June 2011, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Does anyone know what material was coated on the suspension pipes near the control valve? It was a pea green colour, but unfortunately it doesn't stand up well to the steam cleaner.... I remember Ford used something similar on the high pressure LPG supply pipe between tank & converter on their dedicated systems; it was even a very similar colour! It appeared that Ford used some form of plastic coating (perhaps to protect & insulate), whereas it wouldn't surprise me if the MB pipes were just painted. BTW the car in the pictures is far cleaner now!
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Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
89 560L#322020
88 500L#451660-P
88 420L#422477-P
87 420L#324309-P
87 420L#-P
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
86 560L#235896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora)
77 450L#067010-P
75 450L#028414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)

Last edited by Oversize; 30th June 2011 at 10:20 PM. Reason: More
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  #39  
Old 17th February 2012, 07:40 AM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

So can I get these shipped to Australia, or not?? It seems they're limited to ground shipping only....

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...=27@Suspension System&gid=10928@Self-Leveling Accumulator Sphere/Air Cell
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Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
89 560L#322020
88 500L#451660-P
88 420L#422477-P
87 420L#324309-P
87 420L#-P
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
86 560L#235896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora)
77 450L#067010-P
75 450L#028414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
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  #40  
Old 9th March 2012, 10:00 AM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Did we decide which cell was the best for replacements? Is Lemforder the OEM? Or should I just go to MB; being that their units are bigger and will presumably last longer? Adding rechange ports might increase the life of a cell, but once the diaphram is compromised, it's useless.
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Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
89 560L#322020
88 500L#451660-P
88 420L#422477-P
87 420L#324309-P
87 420L#-P
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
86 560L#235896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora)
77 450L#067010-P
75 450L#028414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
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  #41  
Old 10th March 2012, 03:58 AM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

I would probably chose Lemfoerder units at this point of time. To be honest, you don't really know which brand is the best and longest lasting. Febi longevity is definitely marginal - possibly about three years, four maximum. Mark, most suppliers in the states will not ship air cells overseas - I do have one source that is prepared to ship by air freight, but I have been advised by them to keep the information 'under my hat'. They were able to supply Lemfoerders (NOT easy to come by) at the time. If you need any units, please let me know and I will approach them once again. Regards Styria

BTW, MB prices are HUMONGOUS, and Tom in the states is unable to ship them by Air Freight.
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  #42  
Old 10th March 2012, 08:56 AM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Please do Styria as I'll need everything; and more than once!!! I know the front cells need to be replaced, along with the central one. I'm just sorting wheel / tyre issues now before checking the rest of Red Bull and putting together a list of parts that are required.
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Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
89 560L#322020
88 500L#451660-P
88 420L#422477-P
87 420L#324309-P
87 420L#-P
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
86 560L#235896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora)
77 450L#067010-P
75 450L#028414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)
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  #43  
Old 10th March 2012, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Im going to buy a second hand set shortly for the Wagon, Infact Im going to buy a set and just fit the one that keeps popping so I have a spare when it too Pops.

Funny you should mention the FEBI units are marginal because thats what i have replaced and the originals were also FEBI.
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  #44  
Old 26th March 2012, 02:56 PM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

I wonder if non-standard wheels n tyres would effect the life of the cells, being that we've just discovered that some can weigh at least 5kg more than the original Bundts?
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Mark

01 Ford AU 5L (Deep Blue)
89 560L#322020
88 500L#451660-P
88 420L#422477-P
87 420L#324309-P
87 420L#-P
88 420L Euro#-P
88 420L#-P
86 560L#235896-P
79 6.9#5541 (Red Bull)
78 6.9#4248 (Skye)
79 6.9#3686 (Moby Dick)
78 6.9#1776 (Dora)
77 450L#067010-P
75 450L#028414 (Gold Nugget)-P
57 Buick 73A (Titanic)

Last edited by Oversize; 26th March 2012 at 02:59 PM.
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  #45  
Old 26th March 2012, 03:53 PM
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Default Re: Sphere longevity

Mark, I tend to think that longevity would not be unduly compromised. Michel has had Febis' on his Red Terror for about two years and they appear up to the job at the moment. Mind you, I was the only one that put decent mileage on it over a period of about twelve months - I'd say 12k. kms. SEL 69L's Febi front units only lasted about three years, with absolutely minimal mileage, and Ofenteney's 6.9 has had Febi all round for about , say twelve months ? The suspension on his 6.9 is excellent.

If you need spheres, please confirm that you want me to check with that supplier in the States. As is now known, it is becoming very difficult to have these air freighted, and there is a reason for that, and it has been explained to me. It's a story with no valid rhyme nor reason, but that's how it is. Regards Styria

Last edited by Styria; 26th March 2012 at 10:12 PM.
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